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When shouldn't I use 「〜さん」when referring to a third person?

Japanese Language Asked on October 25, 2021

In In actual Japanese society, how often are second-person pronouns used?, the accepted answer says:

You can either refer to a person by the name like 山田, which is not
(particularly) polite, or put a polite affix or a title after it like
山田さん or 山田先生, but which to use depends not only on the relation
between you and the person referred to, but also on who you are
talking to. Japanese adopts a system called relative honorification
(as opposed to absolute honorification used, for example, in
Korean). If 山田 is your boss with the title 部長 within a company,
and you are talking with someone within the company, you have to be
polite enough to refer to him/her as (山田)部長 (even attaching the
polite affix like 山田さん is not polite enough, and is rude). But when
you are talking with some outsider, then you have to say 山田, and
saying 山田さん would be impolite to the outsider (and the expression
山田 does not become impolite to 山田).

Further, in a comment:

It is polite to the outsider for you to do so. It is particularly not
impolite to 山田 for you to do so. If you still don’t get it, then that
is how complex the Japanese honorification system is.

The answers in When should one add さん at the end of a name? don’t touch on this problem.

What is it about 「〜さん」 for a third person that makes it rude (or not) to the second person? Using this example, does it place 山田 above the outsider?

3 Answers

We usually don't attach the honorific title さん to a third person who is a relative when we refer to them while speaking to outsiders.

For example, it is wrong to say お母さん、お兄さん in this situation and we should say 母、兄 instead. People in our company are regarded as our relatives, so we don't attach さん even if they are our bosses.

Answered by Yuuichi Tam on October 25, 2021

I don't have the whole answer but one situation is when you introduce:

  • your boss
  • your employee
  • your family

to a person who doesn't belong to your company or your family.

Answered by user20428 on October 25, 2021

The group mentality is very strong in Japan.
When talking to an outsider about your company members, it's like you are talking about yourself. You must never use さん when talking about yourself.
It would feel to the outsider like you are acting superior and putting yourself(your boss) on a pedestal.
A little bit like those brats that everyone hates in anime that refers to themselves as 俺様{おれさま}。

Answered by stack reader on October 25, 2021

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