Bicycles Asked on August 25, 2021
There are many non-bike applications which benefit from using bicycle hardware. Case in point, there is a long and rich tradition of using bike parts in aviation. One particular area of interest is using bike brakes as a weight- and cost-optimized braking solution for many types of spinning shafts.
However, before prototyping with these parts it would be good to understand what are their operational limits.
While there are some good references for the maximum deceleration which can be reasonably attained by a bicycle (it seems that ~0.7g is a typical value), this does not address what are the brakes’ ultimate force limits.
I am interested in understanding what are industry ball-park figures for the friction force on disc
as in the below image. Please note that this is separate from the braking force a rider experiences, which is the road pushes tyre
/tyre pushes road
.
P.S. I realize that torque is ultimately what is being transmitted through the wheel to the tire, but the torque arises because of drag forces generated by the brake. So if your answer gives torque specs please reference the diameter so I can convert to force.
What is the relative difference between hydraulic and cable actuated disc brakes?
What is the relative difference between hydraulic and cable actuated rim brakes?
Generally speaking - hydraulic brakes offer more modulation. There's more "hand-feel" between the initial bite and through to full-on braking.
Whether its disk or rim is less important - the rim brake can be treated as a really big rotor.
Cable actuated disk calipers tend to be single sided, so they have one moving pad and one stationary pad. These can work fine, but they have to flex the rotor subtly when braking. A hydraulic disk caliper, and any kind of rim brake will bring both pads to the braking surface.
A good rim brake can easily exceed a mediocre disk brake of any style. Which is better between a good rim brake and a good disk caliper is still undecided. Disks have a weight and aero penalty, but don't depend on a planar rim.
Answered by Criggie on August 25, 2021
Key stats from the video:
Also do consider that higher power isn’t always the end be all goal. For example, Magura disc brakes are very powerful, but also have ridiculously tight pad clearance. You will need to true and replace brake rotors far more often compared to other brands.
Edit: Here’s another two videos related to this subject. I won’t bother writing out the key facts for these as they’re far less scientific in nature.
Answered by MaplePanda on August 25, 2021
There's more to braking than just the brakes.
Taken to an extreme, standard bike brakes likely can't throw a 300kg rider over the handlebars
No they can't, but that's because the tires will lose traction and skid, at which point any additional brake power is useless.
Tandem bikes have twice the mass to stop, and they use the same brakes as normal bicycles for rapid stops. Even with that extra mass, with properly setup brakes, you can skid the rear wheel if you grab that lever hard enough and don't care about possibly losing control.
In short, brakes are designed to deliver as much power as the tires are expected to be able to grip, and no more. Anything more requires additional rigidity/material which is effectively dead weight.
Answered by whatsisname on August 25, 2021
Kenn. I’m a bike enthusiast, a proud nerdy mech. engineer, and a (non-current) PPL who now runs a bike shop, so your question interests me. I am led to believe that Shimano employs more engineers per capita than any other bike industry company. If this is true, one way to get definitive numbers would be to seek out Shimano's centre of brake design expertise to get their numbers, e.g. typical hydraulic pressures reached by hand levers, (my guess is 1500 psi or 100 bar.), friction coefficients of various compounds with steel discs, and caliper forces and fluid volumes? Also maybe some heat dissipation and hose expansion data. As the saying goes, one measurement is worth a thousand opinions. Also, anecdotes are not data.
IMHO cable actuated brakes have almost no hope of repeatable reliable performance in a non-bicycle application, hence the complete dominance of hydraulics in automotive and motorbike braking use for many decades.
BTW I’d definitely stick with mineral oil rather than DOT fluid. Citroen pioneered that in the 1960s.
Answered by Henry S on August 25, 2021
You can estimate a figure for your two forces -- "friction force on disc" and "tire pushes road" -- from physical considerations only.
First, if we know the mass of the rider and the deceleration, we can calculate the net braking force on the rider/bicycle combination. This force comes from the "normal force" of the tires against the ground, equivalent to your "tire pushes road" force, but that's not important at this stage. Using your figure of 0.7G of deceleration, we can calculate acceleration in m/s^2 as (0.7*9.81)=6.9 m/s^2 of acceleration (or deceleration if you prefer; sign is not important here).
To calculate the total braking force, we simply use Newton's law Force = mass * acceleration. Assuming a 100kg rider, and rounding, the braking force = 100kg * 6.9 m/s^2 = 687 Newtons.
Assuming all of the braking force comes from the front wheel, which is a reasonable assumption for most short-wheelbase bicycles under maximum braking, we already have the value for "tire pushes road"...it's 687 Newtons.
To calculate the "friction force on disc", we simply multiply by the ratio of the effective disc diameter and tire diameter. If it's a bicycle with 26-inch (660mm) wheels and a 160mm front disc (effective diameter ~150mm) then the "friction force on disc" will be approximately 687 Newtons * (660mm / 150mm) = 3023 Newtons. This corresponds to about 680 pounds-force.
We can see that a larger brake disc reduces the "friction force on disc", as does a smaller wheel, but neither has any impact on "tire pushes road".
Now, as far as "industry standard figures", I have no knowledge of industry practice in this area, and it is a matter of engineering and testing to come up with design factors such as that. I agree that the best way to find that out, aside from running your own failure tests on components, would be to discuss with actual component engineers, but it will be difficult to find the right person who will work with you.
Answered by BetterSense on August 25, 2021
Get help from others!
Recent Answers
Recent Questions
© 2024 TransWikia.com. All rights reserved. Sites we Love: PCI Database, UKBizDB, Menu Kuliner, Sharing RPP